Re: Sous ensemble «européen » d'unicode

[Alain LaBonté <alb@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

A 13:53 98-08-14 +0100, fapp2@xxxxxxxxx a écrit :
>Bonjour,
>
>Récemment j'ai entendu parler d'un appel à propositions pour définir un
>sous-ensemble d'unicode ne contenant que des caractères « européens » --
>une version sans le chinois le sanscrit et autres caractères non utilisés
>couramment.
>
>L'un d'entre vous aurait-il plus d'informations à ce sujet ? Des URL ?
>
>Merci,
>
>Fabien.
>
>---
>Fabien A.P. Petitcolas, University of Cambridge, Computer Laboratory
><http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~fapp2/>



   [Alain] :
   Je crois que les contrats ont déjà été accordés. Ce projet fait suite à
un autre qui a foiré et qui est vieux de deux ou trois ans.

   Force nous est de constater que, alors que nous disposons d'un jeu
universel de caractères, la tendance (qui est une loi de la nature, qu'on
le veuille ou non, et il vaut mieux alors composer avec elle) à diviser, à
disséquer, à confiner, à fermer et à compartimenter s'applique encore.

   Cela confirme d'ailleurs ma croyance que, à l'instant même où toutes les
langues seraient unifiées (ce que je ne crois pas possible de toute façon),
la langue unique commencerait à se diviser d'elle-même.

   Dans le dossier du sous-ensemble européen de caractères (dont on veut
faire deux versions, un minimal et un plus large), la controverse règne en
maître. Je ne vous faire part ci-après que de l'un des nombreux échanges
savoureux qui ont eu lieu récemment (et ce n'est pas nouveau, ça dure
depuis des années). Je ne compte plus le nombre de sous-ensembles
« européens » qui existent dans la tête des individus impliqués.

Alain LaBonté
Québec
_____________________________________________
>Date: 	Sun, 16 Aug 1998 05:22:38 -0400
>Reply-To: iso10646@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Sender: owner-iso10646@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: Markus Kuhn <Markus.Kuhn@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
>To: Michael Everson <everson@xxxxxxxxx>
>Cc: iso10646@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx, unicode@xxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: Re: SECS & VSECS: Small European Character Sets 
>X-URL: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/
>X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN
>
>Michael Everson wrote on 1998-08-15 11:18 UTC:
>> As the editor of a Commission-funded project to develop one or more subsets
>> of the UCS, I must protest again, that Markus Kuhn, who has been
>> participating in the CEN Workship WS-MES, has published the "SECS" and the
>> "VSECS" without the consensus of European and other experts actively
>> working in this area.
>> 
>> It may be the case that, with or without modifications, the subsets Markus
>> has described will be adopted by the Workshop.
>> 
>> Despite the fact that Markus has named these as "European", they do not,
>> however, reflect European consensus and may not meet European requirements.

[Markus] :
>I apologize for using the term "European [TM]", which according to the
>tone of this posting apparently is a registered trademark of Michael
>Everson and the CEN Workship on Multilingual European Subsets, and which
>therefore must not be used under any circumstances in any context by
>private mere mortal inhabitants of the Continent of Europe [TM] without
>prior written permission by Michael Everson.
>
>Seriously,
>
>I *never* ever implied in any of my postings about SECS/VSECS that they
>represent anything agreed upon by the CEN WS-MES, and therefore, your
>"protest" is, sorry, a bit childish. The SECS/VSECS proposal is
>completely my own (unfunded) volunteer work, the major input were
>existing published ISO standards and published literature on European
>character set requirements. I even used completely new names for my
>proposal to make clear that they are my personal projects and not
>CEN-MES work.
>
>I might have implied that I personally consider the drafts the CEN-MES
>workshop has produced so far is not yet very satisfactory (and I do not
>have the impression that I am completely alone with this opinion). Of
>course I will continue to represent my technical opinion in various
>mailing lists.
>
>I do propose to the CEN-MES workshop my SECS/VSECS proposals in the
>presented or modified form as a candidates for standardization. I
>equally offer them to any other interested organization, including
>Unicode Inc., JTC1, ECMA, IETF, etc., for further discussion and
>potential adoption. I believe that wide discussion of the various subset
>proposals on the usual mailing lists will make it more likely that the
>end results will not only have the formal consensus of some
>Commission-funded committee but will also meet real user requirements.
>
>Why do I want to have some independent discussions about European [TM]
>Unicode subsets going on outside CEN-MES?
>
>I do think that some influential CEN-MES linguistic experts occasionally
>represent a bit extreme or at least very academic requirements for
>extremely narrow linguistic applications without realising all the
>consequences for implementors and users. I also got the impression that
>the CEN-MES results were already a priory fixed politically to conform
>to certain standards that I think are of close-to-zero practical
>relevance (namely ISO 6937 and ENV 1973). This led to IMHO somewhat
>bizarre results such as that the current MES-1 draft does not contain
>the Euro sign, the directed quotation marks, and is not even a superset
>of ISO 8859-1, and that MES-2 contains many digraph characters that make
>fixed-width font implementations extremely ugly and cause encoding
>ambiguities. Therefore, I was not entirely convinced that I will like
>the final outcome of the CEN-MES (but I will be delighted if I shall be
>proved wrong here). The current CEN-MES requirements might be quite far
from the requirements of most other computer users, and some independent
>competition I think is very healthy. Therefore I want to get some
>feedback from a broader user community than from just a few committee
>linguists (some of which have in my purely personal opinion repeatedly
>demonstrated a disturbing lack of experience in broader practical
>computing issues). Is that really inappropriate?
>
>Markus
>
>http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ucs/
>
>-- 
>Markus G. Kuhn, Security Group, Computer Lab, Cambridge University, UK
>email: mkuhn at acm.org,  home page: <http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/>