Re: #

[Jacques Andre <Jacques.Andre@xxxxxxxx>]

Jean Fontaine wrote:

>    Si je fais de mémoire un petit recensement des noms que j'ai rencontrés
> pour le caractère #, j'obtiens :
> 
>       - dièse
>       - numéro (number sign)
>       - octothorpe
>       - carré (Office de la langue française du Québec)
>       - croisillon (nom français norme ISO 10646)
>       - fagot
> 
>    Vous en connaissez d'autres? Vos avis sur la fréquence d'emploi et la
> propriété de ces diverses appellations?

J'avais fait un petit sondage il y a deux ans environ sur la
liste GUTenberg (la liste typo n'existait alors pas) et avais demandé
le nom de divers glyphes, représentables en LaTeX c'était commode,
et en avais déduit que quasi tous ceux qui avaient répondu
confondaient complètement les symboles # (numéro), dièse et
octothorpe.Certains confondaient même # et le symbole différent de
(ou celui peu différent de). Et à 99% tous ces symboles sont appelés
dièse !

J'avais fait ce petit sondage car on parlait alors sur comp.font ou
plutôt sur la liste anglophone Typo-L beaucoup des symboples sharp,
numer, pound, hash, etc. avec la meme confusion qu'en français ...


Voici une sorte de FAQ de ce qu'il en a été dit alors :

------ From rss@xxxxxxxxxx (Robin Stephenson)



     #
          Common: number sign; pound; pound sign; hash; sharp;
          {crunch}; hex; [mesh].  Rare: grid; crosshatch; octothorpe;
          flash; <square>, pig-pen; tictactoe; scratchmark; thud;
          thump; {splat}.  

                              
                              <snip>

   The pronunciation of `#' as `pound' is common in the U.S.  but a
   bad idea; {{Commonwealth Hackish}} has its own, rather more
   apposite use of `pound sign' (confusingly, on British keyboards the
   pound graphic happens to replace `#'; thus Britishers sometimes
   call `#' on a U.S.-ASCII keyboard `pound', compounding the American
   error).  The U.S. usage derives from an old-fashioned commercial
   practice of using a `#' suffix to tag pound weights on bills of
   lading.  The character is usually pronounced `hash' outside the
   U.S.   




 
>    Par exemple, le nom « octothorpe » m'a toujours intrigué. Quelqu'un en
> connaît-il la petite histoire?

Voici ce que j'en ai lu dans cette meme liste anglaise (navré, flemme
de traduire) :

================

The 'eight fields' etymology seems to
be common currency; I know Bringhurst repeats it in his 'The Elements
of Typographic Style'. However, as it has been pointed out to me by   
Ian Munro, an old friend and reader of one of the groups this thread
is cross-posted to, octo-thorp doesn't mean 'eight field', as
Bringhurst states, but 'eight villages'.
   
=================
   
 Its name derives from its cartographic
use, denoting a village: eight fields arranged around a hamlet.



=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The definitive (via neufeld@xxxxxxxxxxx (Gerald Neufeld)):

THE REAL SOURCE OF THE WORD "OCTOTHORPE"

First, where did the symbols * and # come from?  In about 1961
when DTMF dials were still in development, two Bell Labs guys in data
communications engineering (Link Rice and Jack Soderberg) toured the
USA talking to people who were thinking about telephone access to
computers. They asked about possible applications, and what symbols
should be used on two keys that would be used exclusively for data
applications.  The primary result was that the symbols should be
something available on all standard typewriter keyboards.  The * and #
were selected as a result of this study, and people did not expect to
use those keys for voice services.  The Bell System in those days did
not look internationally to see if this was a good choice for foreign
countries.


Then in the early 1960s Bell Labs developed the 101 ESS which was
the first stored program controlled switching system (it was a PBX).
One of the first installations was at the Mayo Clinic.  This PBX had
lots of modern features (Call Forwarding, Speed Calling, Directed Call
Pickup, etc.), some of which were activated by using the # sign.  A
Bell Labs supervisor DON MACPHERSON went to the Mayo Clinic just
before cut over to train the doctors and staff on how to use the new
features on this state of the art switching system.  During one of his
lectures he felt the need to come up with a word to describe the #
symbol.  Don also liked to add humor to his work.  His thought process
which took place while at the Mayo Clinic doing lectures was as
follows:


 - There are eight points on the symbol so "OCTO" should be part
of the name.

- We need a few more letters or another syllable to make a noun,
so what should that be?  (Don MacPherson at this point in his life was
active in a group that was trying to get JIM THORPE's Olympic medals
returned from Sweden) The phrase THORPE would be unique, and people
would not suspect he was making the word up if he called it an
"OCTOTHORPE".


So Don Macpherson began using the term Octothorpe to describe the  
# symbol in his lectures.  When he returned to Bell Labs in Holmdel
NJ, he told us what he had done, and began using the term Octothorpe 
in memos and letters.  The term was picked up by other Bell Labs
people and used mostly for the fun of it.  Some of the documents which
used the term Octothorpe found their way to Bell Operating Companies  
and other public places.  Over the years, Don and I have enjoyed  
seeing the term Octothorpe appear in documents from many different
sources.
 
Don MacPherson retired about eight years ago, and I will be
retiring in about six weeks.

Ralph Carlsen
__________

Peut-être que LaBonté normalisait déjà à cette époque et pourra
confirmer ?






 
>    Si on exclut le dièse en musique, ce symbole # a-t-il déjà eu un usage en
> typographie française traditionnelle?


Mais c'est que # N'A RIEN A VOIR avec un dièse ... (sauf une vague 
ressemblance graphique).


J'ai regardé dans quelques catalogues de fondeurs français et ne vois
pas la moindre trace de # : par exemple dans le « spécimen résumé » de
Peignot (du début du siècle, ces catalogues n'étaient jamais datés
vu qu'il changeaint tout le temps !) il y a une table « police type
pour labeurs » qui contient plein de choses (des lettres doubles :
æ, oe, fi,ff, fl, ffi, ffl, et ... ç et w), divers signes de ponctuation
(dont & « la
croix mortuaire), etc., mais de # aucun ! Il faudrait voir dans
les catalogues complets dans les bibliothèques comme St Sulpice.
Mais ces polices prouvent quand même que ce symbole # n'était pas
d'usage typographique en France dans les années 1900.


-- 
Jacques André
Irisa/Inria-Rennes,   Campus de Beaulieu,  F-35042 Rennes Cedex,  
France
Tél. : +33 2 99 84 73 50,  fax : +33 2 99 84 71 71, email :
jandre@xxxxxxxx